Interview with Jose Ramos-Horta
1996 Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and East Timor Freedom Activist

The following is an interview with the East Timorese Nobel Peace Prize Laureate (awarded this year-1996) Jose Ramos-Horta. He has been both honored and criticized for his strong pro-democracy stance for the East Timor region of Indonesia. He was recently in Washington, DC in order to share his thoughts about his Nobel Peace Prize and more importantly his projections about the prospect of peace and self-determination in the occupied land of East Timor.
The interview took place on November 13, 1996 in Washington D.C. The interviewer is a reporter for the Indonesian Language Service of the Voice of America International Radio Broadcasting Service. The transcription was prepared by Paul W. Slusher for the East Timor Action Network/US. It should be noted that neither Mr. Jose Ramos-Horta, nor the VOA reporter are native English speakers. For the sake of accuracy, the transcription is written verbatim and therefore contains occasional grammatical errors and Bahasa-Indonesian language words and names. There are small notations in parenthesis in the cases where the transcriptor was unsure about proper spelling.
Most importantly it should be remembered that Jose Ramos-Horta is one of the most well-respected and visible voices for freedom in the invaded nation of East Timor. The granting of the Nobel Peace Prize to Mr. Ramos-Horta, although for obvious reasons controversial in Indonesia, has been widely praised as a bold action of support for the self-determination of East Timor and the East Timorese who have suffered under Indonesian occupation and control

VOA: Before we start, for identification purpose, I would like you to say your name please?
JRH: My name is Jose Ramos-Horta.

VOA: ...and what are you doing now Mr.- do you want me to call you Mr. Ramos-Horta?...because the world knows you as an activist, East Timorese activist. So what else beside that do you do?
JRH: Well, I have a part-time job at the University of South Whales in Sydney. I am the founder and the director of a program called "Diplomacy Training Program" in the Law School of the university where I teach only 2-3 months a year. I teach introduction to the United Nations system. I organize United Nations simulations, simulation of Security Council and I lecture on UN human rights procedures and so on.

VOA: And how long ago did you visit East Timor?
JRH: I left East Timor on December 4, 1975 and have not returned since.

VOA: First of all I would like to congratulate you as the winner of the Nobel Peace Prize. Mr. Ramos-Horta what does the Nobel Prize mean to you?
JRH: To me personally, it has no special significance as such. For me it has meaning, a profound meaning, only in the sense that finally after 21 years there is a recognition of the plight of the people of East Timor, to freedom, to peace. That is far more important to me than my personal joy or not about to be awarded Nobel Peace Prize.

VOA: How will the award affect the ongoing dialogue sponsored by the UN?
JRH: I believe that in the long run, in the next few months, after the dust settles, after the emotions in Indonesia calm down, Indonesia probably will wake up to the reality that the world has changed dramatically since 1965. We can understand that Indonesia in the '60s and '70s was paranoid about the threat of communism, about the national security, integrity, stability of the country. We can understand that the Indonesian regime, the generations that led Indonesia to independence through the '50s and '60s was always obsessed by the security culture. But Indonesia, the world has changed. So maybe in a few months from now when they wake up, they will realize that Indonesia must now negotiate much more seriously with the UN, with Portugal to find an honorable solution to the East Timor problem. And that is the paramount concern for me. In that there has to be a solution based on the wishes, the aspirations of the people of East Timor. Indonesia cannot be blinded by its own propaganda, by the myth itself created. That it went into East Timor because the people of East Timor invited Indonesia to come in. It cannot be alluded by its own propaganda that the people of East Timor are very happy. They are not. So it has to assess its own policies, its record in a sober, serious manner.

VOA: But Mr. Ramos-Horta in East Timor itself, there are three factions and they are also at odds with each other. So when you say that East Timorese people, what do you mean?
JRH: Well, this again is one of the myths created by Indonesia that the people of East Timor are divided. Maybe they were in 1974-75. But that's natural. How many parties are there in Indonesia? You have GOLKAR [?spelling?], PDI, which GOLKAR and the army try to disrupt, to destroy. You have the other parties and you have so many others now that want separate parties in Indonesia. But that is the normal life function in an open society. In [East Timor], we had only three parties. One wanted independence. A second one, the Timorese Democratic Union wanted also independence but with close links to Portugal, and only a tiny one of no more than 50 members, called OPERDETE [spelling?] wanted integration with Indonesia. That's the reality at the time. Indonesia created its own myth that the people of East Timor majority wanted to join with Indonesia. But, in any case, these are my views which may not be more valid than Indonesia's own views. So what I propose, let's have a referendum in 5-6 years from now, or tomorrow if that's what Indonesia prefers. Not under ABRI supervision that happened in 1976, but under United Nations supervision, as it happened in Namibia, in Zimbabwe. Let the people of East Timor decide what they want for the future of the country.

VOA: Some people say that the award will make it even more difficult to achieve any solutions in East Timor because probably it will harden attitudes on both sides. Do you have any comments on that?
JRH: It will not harden our attitude, on our part, on my part. I can assure the Indonesia side that I will not use my speech at Oslo to denigrate, to attack Indonesia. Yes there has been a lot of pain, a lot of suffering in East Timor, as there has been a lot of suffering in Indonesia. You know the East Timorese are not the only victims of the New Order. You ask Pramudya, ask Sri Bintang ask Muchtar Pakpahan, who remembers Macina [spelling?] and all the other Indonesians. My speech in Oslo will be a conciliatory speech to Indonesia, that let's bury the differences, let's bury the past and let's dialogue. Not from a position of a stronger person against a weak person, not from the position of weapons of the army of ABRI, with the arrogance towards a weaker person. But let's talk, meet half-way and talk without preconditions about how best to resolve the problem. So on our part there is hardening of the position. If there is hardening on the part of the military, well I can only say, too bad.

VOA: So, you will be going to Oslo for the ceremony?
JRH: Certainly, most definitely I will go there to receive the award on behalf of the people of East Timor and to convey a message of peace, of dialogue with Indonesia.

VOA: And when will this be?
JRH: The award will be December 10, '96 in a few weeks from now.

VOA: Mr. Ramos-Horta, Bishop Belo is the co-recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize. Have you had any discussion lately with him? There was a demonstration against him on Monday in Jakarta because he was quoted by a German magazine saying that the East Timorese were treated like slaves.
JRH: Which is true. The East Timorese are treated like slaves, like prisoners in their own country. These words are not mine, it comes from a church person who lives in East Timor. Sometimes when I say these things, I am told that I don't know the reality of the situation. That is propaganda. But it comes from the mouth of a man of peace. Someone who has Indonesian citizenship, Indonesian nationality, Bishop Belo. So why organize a demonstration against Bishop Belo? It only discredits Indonesia itself. Why 3,000 demonstrators against a simple man, a man of peace? Why didn't these people, the 3,000, demonstrate against the massacre of November 12, 1991? Why were they silent? They're silent when East Timorese are killed. When workers and students in Indonesia are killed. They were silent when Megawat Sukarno had his headquarters attacked, but they are so quick to react with emotion when our leader, the spiritual leader of the people of East Timor, says some very right words, two words about situation in East Timor.

VOA: ...but have you had any discussion lately with Bishop Belo?
JRH: I maintain a very low-contact with Bishop Belo in his role as spiritual leader of the people of East Timor. Every single East Timorese respects him. Indonesia should make no mistakes, that I or any person in the resistance does not agree with Bishop Belo. When it comes to Bishop Belo we are all 100% behind him.

VOA: Can you elaborate, what does he actually mean, I know that you have contacts with him and you said you agree with him that East Timorese are being treated as slaves, can you elaborate on that?
JRH: Yes I can elaborate on that. For instance when East Timorese who demonstrate peacefully are shot and killed, when East Timorese who contact Amnesty International are sentenced to 9 years in prison, like Fernando Ralaoujou [spelling?] serving 9 years in prison in Stipinan [spelling?] only for sending a message to Amnesty International. When East Timorese in the mountains are shot indiscriminately by the army. When East Timorese are tortured, and I have seen with my own eyes the scars on hundreds of East Timorese young people in Portugal, in Australia who fled East Timor in the last 2 years. I interviewed them, I talked with them, they showed their scars on their bodies. This is what Bishop Belo is talking about, that East Timorese are treated like dogs, like animals, like slaves.

VOA: But -uh- the thing is that from several sources, I have heard that in East Timor now development is growing very fast.
JRH: I don't know what sources are these? Might be Indonesian Embassy sources. There is not one single Indonesian factory in East Timor. Not one single development project there. If you talk about roads, which the army uses, if you talk about some buildings for the transmigrants, for the civil servants, for the army officers, if that's what you call "development", yes that's true, that's correct.

VOA: ...but there's a university there?
JRH: A university which is not free. Which has extremely poor quality. A university is mostly political where the Rector, Armin D'Omaya [spelling?], where the lectures are not free. What kind of university is that? There are many universities like that in China, in former Soviet Union, in Chile, in South Africa. No, the whole question of freedom, dignity of a people you cannot buy with roads, with buildings. Like they say in Indonesia under the Dutch. Indonesians fought for their freedom, for their independence regardless of the roads, of the schools the Dutch built in Indonesia.

VOA: This is your first visit to the United States since you were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. What do you hope to achieve in the United States?
JRH: At this stage, my visit has been an informal one, for a talk at Georgetown, Freedom House. I have no special agenda at this stage because this is immediate post-election. I will come again sometime in the next year for a longer period of time hoping that then United States, the new administration will be installed and there is possibility of a dialogue with the administration to have the West playing an active, constructive role in persuading Indonesia that it's time for Indonesia to vacate East Timor.

VOA: Yesterday you were in New York to make your first public appearance, a service to mark the anniversary of the Dili incident. Do you have any statement regarding the anniversary?
JRH: I hope only that the 5 years after the massacre, November 12, 1991, that Indonesia reviews its policies, reviews its entire role in East Timor. And at least in its first step stop torture, stop executions in East Timor, disappearance and so that's my first message. My second message is that no amount of brute force used against us will ever be enough to subjugate the people of East Timor. We will fight for the next twenty years, forty years if necessary.

VOA: And also yesterday you made an appeal to President Clinton to be a peace-broker for East Timor. What do you propose?
JRH: I propose only that the United States, which was so effective in brokering the peace in the Middle East, in Bosnia, can use its good offices, its influences with Indonesia to broker peace in East Timor, for the best interest of the United States in the region and for the best interest of Indonesia.

VOA: And the last question. As far as the solution for East Timor is concerned, Indonesia has a different agenda, you have a different agenda, and today you are going to make another public appearance at Georgetown University. Over there, what is your message?
JRH: My message is the same one. We remain open for dialogue with Indonesia without preconditions. Indonesia should not always look to us as enemies. We have the greatest respect for the Indonesian people, for the Indonesian nation. And even President Suharto, he has done not only bad things in Indonesia. We must credit him for the great economic growth of Indonesia. But on the other hand, he must move also on the political front. To compliment, to complete his task in the great economic growth of Indonesia, he must now reform politically the country, to give more space, more freedom to the Indonesian people themselves. Then yes in a few years from now when he leaves he will leave with a totally complete job on the economic and political front.

VOA: Is there anything else you would like to add?
JRH: I only want to wish the best of luck to the Indonesian Democracy Movement in Indonesia.

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